Dispatches: In God's Name (and a proper response)

Just watched this and I think I've got a little sick in my mouth.

As Christianity becomes smaller and more marginalised in the UK a certain core of it becomes more and more extreme to in an attempt to preserve itself. We have to hope that the mainstream, reasonable UK Christians will fight strongly against this ridiculous shit and kick up a fuss. And if they don't then shame on them. Seriously, we've creationism in UK schools, homophobes and pro-life lobbyists manipulating Judges and bills and all the while they are hiding the fact they think the world is "about 4000" years old. That and Jerry Springer the Opera haters Christian voice were in the show, holding meetings where they ask God to push back the floods of evil (aka Islam). And their leader saying that "Allah is Satan." 


This is 'the-shit-we-laugh-at-America-for' on our doorstep.

Half the time I think the proper response is to carefully and politely deconstruct their arguments and promote reality, but I'm starting to think that we need to talk to them on their level. For example when a Creationist disproved evolution by demonstrating that you never find new life when you open a jar of peanut butter, I wrote a response about statistics and the Urey Miller experiment

But maybe I should have done this:



I wonder, if this was the only kind of response Creationists could get would they be doing better or worse?

25 comments:

Claire said...

Hello,

I'm a new Skeptobot reader- I came here via B3ta but it's always nice to read skeptical UK blogs rather than just the US stuff.

When I was 16 I fell in with this lot (the Pentacostal Christians to be precise) and despite now having been a happy little atheist for quite some time I always find people react in wonder when I tell them these people, these schools, these opinions exist in this country- not only that but they're building quite a following for themselves. I think you're right when you talk about polarisation, ie as religion is more and more discredited more people move to the religious extremes. I follow what the xian right do in the US and I keep hoping it could never happen here to the same degree, but you can't be complacent about it as this programme proves.

I read what fundy eejits write on the Internet all the time, and yet watching these people talking nonsense still made me feel nauseous.

I actually rang Channel 4 and told them how good I thought the programme was- not the sort of thing I'd normally do but I thought giving them some encouragement for airing stuff that isn't Big Brother couldn't be a bad thing.

Anonymous said...

Firstly, I want to make it clear that I am a Christian. Secondly, I am undecided as to whether the world is only 4000 or 6000-odd-years as some have suggested. However, I tend to err on the side of this not being the case as modern day science seem to point to a much older universe.

I just want to make two points, both of which I consider are extremely important for Christian today to understand:

1) Christians must hold grace and truth in equal proportion to each other.

Truth, because without stating what is real we fall away from what is best, both for every individual person and on a corporate level across society. Truth, because without it what is the point of believing or trusting anything said or done by a man that said: "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life." Without a knowledge and a proclamation of the truth, the Christian faith is finished.

Part of proclaiming the truth is stating what is wrong, stating what is bad - therefore is against and hurts God - and standing up for justice. This means standing up for unborn children in the womb. The pictures that we have seen of "fetuses" at 22 weeks show that there is a life there. Everyone must stand up for that life and Christians, who understand the truth that life is sacred, must stand up for the life too!

Grace, however, is equally important. Grace is about being the person of love the God was in the person of Jesus. God loved us so much that he sent his son to die for all the wrong things, sin, that each and every one of us has done. Christians must also show that same love because of what Jesus did. To live in light of God's love and sacrifice means to show grace and mercy to those who, like ourselves are far, far from perfect and thus far, far from God's perfect standard of goodness. This means that we are not to shout hell, fire and brimstone to those who are, at present, away from God.
We must state the truth that we have come to know but to do it is love is the greatest thing.
Truth and grace in EQUAL proportion. Neither can be more important or else Christians will have nothing to say or they'll say it in a way that no one wants to listen to understand.

In the documentary there was, no doubt, error. The main one being what it means to be a "fundamentalist". It should mean that the bible and its passages are understood within their context, literary form and purpose. For example, Christians do not follow many of the Old Testament laws because they purpose, to point people to God, is now fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ.

It is not about semantics. It is not about the actual words, but about the purpose, and the context into which, those words were written. Hence, there is a strong case to argue the description of creation was, in fact, more about addressing some of the key lies of the day. The sun and moon, instead of being objects of worship, were actually created all God according to the creation story described in the Bible. They are not to be worshiped but are meant to point to their Creator.

To summarize, the two key things I would like to draw up are:
- The understanding of fundamentalist is incorrect (both by Christians in the episode e.g. Camel School, and the producers).
-There was far too much truth, in appropriately, and sometimes inaccurately, expressed and no way near enough grace. In short, if Jesus was walking on earth today he would certainly be asking the school, Steven etc, "What are you doing? Do you understand the grace that I have shown you? Now show that grace to others too!"

mattvaughan said...

Despite the fact that I'm a Christian, I couldn't agree more. Watching Steven Green lambast gay people and call Allah Satan made me feel sick.
For what it's worth, I, as a reasonable Christian (well, I like to think so...) want to disassociate myself from this hateful nonsense. Your criticisms are all valid, but please don't think that all Christians are like this. Not all Christians think that the earth is "about 4,000 years old"!
The kind of hatred and anger in the programme is totally unrepresentative of the teachings of Jesus. We are called to be kind, compassionate, and forgiving. Please don't think that the crackpots on Dispatches represent all Christians!

Anonymous said...

Was Ms Williams QC the woman who asked for the camera to be turned off when she was asked about the age of the earth and the interviewer contradicted her vague guess of 4,000 years, making reference to carbon dating etc? She also turned her mic off when she was asked about the Islamophobia and 'Allah is satan' comments of her fellow travellers. Her total inability to answer Modell's questions was staggering (she didn't seem top know what she believed) and her childish and whiny pleas to turn the cameras off hilarious.

I was heartened by the public response to the homophobic Islamophobe though - good to see his leaflets being binned and people challenging his bigotry.

Bill said...

Hi Claire, it's nice to see you! Interesting to see you have first hand experience of this kind of thing, looking in from the outside you always wonder how accurate the documentary is. Good idea on ringing Channel 4. I think I'll send them an email too.

Anonymous: thanks for your email, I think the biggest stumbling block between religion and myself is it's talk of "truth." The world is a flexible, confusing thing - with new things changing the world every day. Our ideas change every day, and we need to hope our "Truths" slowly get better and better. Rather than try and mold a book to constantly represent our current morals.


Matt: Of course I don't! But it does bring an important issue up. These extreme viewpoints are often propped up (unwittingly) by reasonable Christians. Especially (like jdc325 mentions) when people like Ms Williams are so insidious with their beliefs - carefully hiding, obscuring and literally censoring themselves depending on who they are talking too. For example If she met you she would hide all her ridiculous beliefs, but bring them back out if she was talking to the Christian Voice.

Writing this site for 2 years now has made me notice that a lot of publc religious figures do it.

Or it's like Catholicism, a huge proportion of Catholics in the Western world don't agree with the Pope's stance of Birth Control or Homosexuality. So they just ignore him and carry on with their lives. But their support backs up the Vatican telling developing countries that HIV can pass through small holes in condoms - so they are useless.

Thats why I think it's so important that UK Christians fight these ridiculous people along side the atheists, humanists and scientists.

Bill said...

jdc35: "I was heartened by the public response to the homophobic Islamophobe though - good to see his leaflets being binned and people challenging his bigotry."

Damn straight, it gives you hope that all is not lost yet.

mattvaughan said...

Yeah, I agree. She didn't do herself any favours by ducking questions and not preparing herself adequately. And perhaps sensible Christians should stand up more and disassociate ourselves from people who make up all that crap about condoms, or who say that dead US soldiers are God's punishment on the US for their acceptance of homosexuality (see Fred Phelps). Attitudes like that are appalling enough on their own, but when contrasted with the teachings of Jesus and the early church, which I think are utterly beautiful, they're even worse. Trust me, it wasn't fun watching Dispatches last night. I didn't know whether to cringe or cry.
I personally don't believe in a 7 day creation of the world, or that the world is 4,000 years old, or that evolution is disproved by a jar of peanut butter (seriously, that guy makes me cringe). I don't believe that Christianity and science are mutually exclusive - far from it. But I do believe that truth, as a concept, is not entirely relative. I believe that Jesus' teachings are valid for today, and that a society based upon them would be perfect. That doesn't mean that I understand everything in the Bible - bits of it really stick in my throat, I confess - but I believe and trust that it is the word of God.
Was it Bertrand Russell who said that the problem with the world is that idiots are cocksure, and intelligent people are full of doubt? I think it applies to Christians too. Steven Green may be sure of everything he says, but I'm unwilling to join him in handing out leaflets saying that gay people are going to hell. I really want to ask your forgiveness for that, because it's painful to watch.

Bill said...

"I really want to ask your forgiveness for that, because it's painful to watch."

You can't have my forgiveness 'cos you didn't do anything wrong! That's like me apologising because Steven Green is white. I'm glad that Atheists, Humanists and the Religious *all* think he's a idiot.

"I believe that Jesus' teachings are valid for today, and that a society based upon them would be perfect. "

It's important to note that these people doing crazy things are trying to make a society just like that. Thats the important divide I think, using Jesus' teachings to influence your life and pushing Jesus' teachings on everyone. One is helpful - one is incredibly harmful.

Glad to have you posting Matt!

Claire said...

Lave- re accuracy of the documentary, from what I remember it is quite the understatement! It's important that the programme made the links between this movement and lobbying the govt- I think a lot of people are quick to dismiss people like that as "just a bunch of nutters" and don't see how they can have an influence.

I'm glad on a personal level to see the results of the parliamentary votes yesterday and today though.

Mattvaughan- You don't need to ask forgiveness for people like Stephen Green and I am sure most people are aware that the vast majority of people describing themselves as Christian do not agree with his views or anything like them. It is great that you are speaking out against those people though- moderate and liberal Christians really need to do that, because when it comes to the political arguments of the extremists, they are keen to use all Christians in their statistics and imply that you all agree when they're trying to get their way.

The more obvious it is that they represent a tiny minority with little support, the less likely they are to affect anything and pretend they are speaking for you.

Anonymous said...

I found this programme Not only distribing but sorry in away for the "real" Christain's who dont force it down peoples throats

mattvaughan said...

The thing is, all absolutist religions believe that their truth is valid for everyone in the world. Christians believe that everyone should have the opportunity to respond to Jesus. I certainly wouldn't want to force it onto anyone - that's patently not the point, and entirely contradicts what Jesus commanded - but I would want people to hear the good news, because I really believe that it IS good news. For me, it's a matter of doing that in the way Jesus would want - peacefully, lovingly, and sacrificially, if need be.
I wouldn't want to take up any more of your time, but it has been nice debating things with intelligent people. As long as you're aware that not all Christians are bigoted, hate-filled creeps like Steven Green, I'm happy!
If anyone wants to continue the discussion, mattjvaughan at googlemail.com is where you'll find me.

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