Comments on Skeptobot: A skeptical look at TAM:London

Superb blog post, I have book marked this internet...

2010-12-14T18:36:54.090Z

Superb blog post, I have book marked this internet site so ideally I’ll see much more on this subject in the foreseeable future!

Apples and Oranges. a church gathers to indulge a ...

2010-10-27T12:56:30.170Z

Apples and Oranges. a church gathers to indulge a line of crapola, and their motivation is usually based in some kind of fear or a blind adherence to the faith of their parents. skeptics may preach, but the gospel is an evolving body of the most cutting edge evidence known, and will change to suit said evidence rather than the opposite. The similarities are menial, and the differences vast. I agree with some of your other points.

As a British-born Boston (USA) Skeptics in the Pub...

2010-10-25T20:07:23.455Z

As a British-born Boston (USA) Skeptics in the Pub goer - I have been a bit shocked to learn that UK SITP events have charges on the door. Doesn't the pub just rake it in on the bar? Or are UK skeptics less boozy than the Yanks? Or are Brits too boozy in general, so the skeptics don't make a difference? Or are SITP organizers and speakers quaffing Bolle on the side?
Yours, Outraged in Boston.

Come on you lot, cheer up - it was only about 200 ...

2010-10-19T16:12:07.199Z

Come on you lot, cheer up - it was only about 200 quid for the entire weekend...

Tickets went on sale on May 29th this year, so if you start saving up now for next year's it works out to only £6 a week.

The only skeptic that's being priced out of the market is the one who isn't organised enough to plan ahead.

DJ Grothe announced at TAM London that all the mon...

2010-10-18T15:19:16.481Z

DJ Grothe announced at TAM London that all the money they raise here will stay in the UK

A greatly enlightening blog, thank you , however a...

2010-09-30T16:25:17.243Z

A greatly enlightening blog, thank you , however as a fairly new skeptic and passionate athiest (I have always been a relatively passive non-believer)I do have what I think is a valid point.

I came across TAM by accident from Tim Minchin. If we are to assume a normal distribution curve of attendees then I am not alone when I say that even as an event that will preach to the converted, not all attendees will be at the same conversion level.

I hope to gain inspiration from the event and of course much needed knowledge to allow me to discuss the issues with those who are perhaps not yet converted. Only this model of knowledge and logical spreading can work if we are to welcome those believers up our "ivory tower" of logic and science.

I consider myself very lucky to be able to afford the event (but then again if we remove lunches and refreshments, at approximately £10 per hour, I consider it good value for money)
However, you absolutely right to question all aspects of the event, if we cannot question, then we are no better than those that accept at face value, ridiculous claims and superstitions !

I appreciate your point about TAM getting more TED...

2010-06-17T21:15:14.732Z

I appreciate your point about TAM getting more TED-like to maximize outreach. Great point, in fact.

I'm actually going to argue about the comparison to a church. Churches are the focal points of communities that meet week-in, week-out, and provide a constant community of support - as you say, for the like-minded. A yearly conference for an affinity group is very different. I think that's pretty clear without much further comment.

The crux of my reply is to point out that a church community can be profoundly valuable for the individual.

Whoa, I hear you saying, who that would read this blog and know about TAM finds value in belonging to a CHURCH??!? Well, I do. I'm an American atheist, and I'm very welcome at my creedless church. It's my community, where I'm known and know others, where we witness each others' joys and sorrows and celebrate and mourn together. But not once a year, every day. Please don't underestimate the value of that kind of community. Among true religious (now don't make assumptions about what I mean by that, either) liberals, we are certainly sometimes uncomfortable that our official name does include the word "church," because it brings to mind associations that do not hold for us; many would prefer the word "fellowship." But it does help me to maintain empathy for those whose religious beliefs are in fact prescribed and dogmatic, because I understand that for many of them their true benefit from their church is much like what I get from mine. Of course I cannot fully empathize, because they also may form judgments based not on rationality but on dogma and received wisdom - I cannot in any way congratulate them for that. But finding empathy, where it's real, for those other than ourselves is a good exercise.

I think your points about avoiding looking like a ...

2010-06-09T10:00:03.147Z

I think your points about avoiding looking like a Church are good ones and TED is indeed a great example to follow when it comes to releasing the content for free.

However to address some of the uncertainty about the role/view of TAM...

To me it's a holiday.

To me it's a chance to meet people with similar views.

To me, most importantly, it's a REALLY cheap ticket to a whole bunch of 'gigs' that I would have paid much more for. If you sum the price of a Tim Minchin gig, a few lectures and debates and throw in meals it is a very reasonably priced event.

The large difference between TAM and church is that one consists of people distributing facts and the other consists of people spouting nonsense. One engenders and embraces debate while the other has no room for 'points of view'.

Great post though!

To Tracy's point about the fringe events, I...

2010-06-06T19:22:39.842Z

To Tracy's point about the fringe events, I'd suggest getting involved in organizing your own open event on the Barcamp model -- highly inclusive events, usually free to attend thanks to sponsor support.

Open events will accompany many large and expensive events. Think Slamdance for the Sundance film festival. Or Austin Barcamp during SXSW (video). In many ways these parallel conferences provide as much value as the main conference itself, but in different ways. For example, Barcamps are known for introducing new technologies otherwise ignored by the curators of a formal event. Same thing for films at Slamdance.

But I'd say the value is mostly in the interaction. Where a large formal event is basically a passive experience, an open event can be intense in its interaction, especially if you step up to offer a talk.

We're mounting our fourth 'SkeptiCamp' event here in Colorado later this month (link). We're deliberately organizing it in a minimalist way, choosing a venue near food (to avoid having to provide lunch) and avoiding having to track down more than one sponsor. The astronomy department at a state campus is sponsoring a two-room venue.

I understand there's a Facebook page being put together to organize such an event in London. See here. Such an open event could be a great complement to TAM London itself.

Reed

Thanks for the comments. UPDATE: Hopefully will b...

2010-05-25T12:58:35.400Z

Thanks for the comments.

UPDATE: Hopefully will be meeting @TAMlondon for a Q&A. If you have any questions you would like raised please let me know. Either in the comments or email at skeptobot@yahoo.co.uk.

Cheers

(I'm not in position to log into my own site right now!)

Ha! I left out one really important point: there i...

2010-05-24T09:26:41.974Z

Ha! I left out one really important point: there is a fantastic TAM London fringe which is comprised of free or very low-cost events in the weeks before and after. Anyone can attend these. So those who can't make TAM London have many other options to join in the community aspect and see some good talks. Last year these included talks by Petra Boynton, Bruce Hood, a blogger panel with Rebecca Watson, Martin Robbins, Andy Lewis and Tim Farley, exclusive backstage tours of museums, and of course the essential pub crawl.

- Tracy King, TAM London

Thanks for the feedback on TAM London. I appreciat...

2010-05-24T09:22:30.316Z

Thanks for the feedback on TAM London. I appreciate the concerns of everyone who feels priced out of the event, and I would like to assure everyone that we are working very hard to find ways to minimise the price, such as removing VAT liability if we possibly can. This may not be in place for this year though.

I'd like to address some of the specifics in your post, firstly the idea of putting the talks online. This is something we have always planned to do once the DVDs are released, but as they have only just been edited and are still at the printers, it hasn't happened yet. The TED model is indeed our own model, so I would ask that people wait for us to be ready with the edits before judging. In fact JREF has been nagging me for a while for the DVDs so they can get talks online, I can publish those emails if you want evidence!

In addition, the DVDs are available for around £40 for a 4-disc set of 14 hours of talks and extras, which I'm sure you'll agree is amazing value for money. So those who can't make it to the live event can still benefit from the talks or use them for educational value.

That said, the community aspect is by far the best and most valuable thing, to me. You liken it to a church - I think it's similar in that a lot of likeminded people get together, but you could also say that about a music festival or any other gathering. If you haven't been in the company of 1000 other skeptics, I heartily recommend it. I use my annual holiday budget to go to TAM Vegas every year instead of a 'regular' holiday because there simply isn't anything quite like being among so many new likeminded folk and hanging out with old friends who I only usually get to interact with online.

Regarding the revenue, the JREF already provides services for the UK and Europe, and that includes underwriting the massive cost of events like TAM London. But without revenue raised here, it is difficult for JREF to make investments here. Events like TAM London facilitate that. So what the community pays, the community will get back, it just doesn't happen overnight. I can say though, that there are several UK skeptic orgs that have benefited from TAM London. In addition, don't forget the opportunity for UK and European groups to promote themselves at TAM London, which is a very unique change to get in front of over 1000 of their potential audience.

Regarding the costs - it is incredibly expensive to hold a quality conference in London, but the demand has been there for a long time. TAM Vegas is in its 8th year and one of the major criticisms it attracts is that it's too far and therefore too expensive for us folks in Europe. The registration alone is £312. So by bringing it to London, which is accessible to all of Europe, we address that issue - those who can't go to TAM Vegas get their own event, and the revenue raised helps JREF do its excellent outreach work.

No-one is more aware of the costs than I am. I say that because I spend many months of my time working out how to make TAM London as affordable as possible whilst still being a world-class conference. The feedback from those who attended last year is that it was value for money, and although it's more expensive this year, that is a temporary situation until we can remove at least the VAT liability.

There's a video here showing the flavour of last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjFSrdvANdM

This year will be even bigger, even better, and even more amazing. I truly do regret that for some, it's not an option, but the DVDs or the online talks, plus the excellent outreach work done by the JREF, does mean that the wider community benefits.

I hope that helps, please do contact me via the website if anyone has any specific questions before tickets go on sale.

Nail. Hit. Head. I have little doubt that TAM Lon...

2010-05-23T20:35:22.745Z

Nail. Hit. Head.

I have little doubt that TAM London will be excellent, and I fully appreciate that this is a fund raising event.

But they've priced this skeptic out of the market...

::Sadface::

I want to follow up - I'm sure the Hilton is e...

2010-05-23T20:14:44.350Z

I want to follow up - I'm sure the Hilton is expensive - anything in London seems to be very expensive by my standards, but I remember hearing from someone there, that there just aren't a lot of conference venues in the London area that are the right size, have food and Tube transportation easily available. Such as somewhere between last year's location and the Albert Hall. And that many of them require a rather sizable deposit up front - perhaps into five figures. I've been to London only four times, so obviously I don't know what I'm talking about. :)

I don't see TAM as church-like. I see the Skeptics in the Pub, and the TAM events, and the increasing number of Meet-up groups, as being a rare place to congregate face-to-face with people who think as you do, and exchange ideas to take home and use to spread the virtues of critical thinking.

TAM to TED. Very good point. Also, well made. Than...

2010-05-23T19:46:59.459Z

TAM to TED. Very good point. Also, well made. Thanks.

Congrats on a good post - I was planning my own on...

2010-05-23T19:29:47.689Z

Congrats on a good post - I was planning my own on TAM but you've summed up all of my major thoughts here - the exclsivity, the insularity, and the siphoning of "skeptic dollars", for want of a better phrase, out of the UK.

Ultimately, I guess, TAM is a fund-raising event, and operated as such. It's a shame the organisers didn't try to temper that goal with the wider aims of JREF.

Thank you very much for this post. It sums up my o...

2010-05-23T17:38:41.472Z

Thank you very much for this post. It sums up my own feeling almost exactly, and it does so more coherently than I've managed.

I couldn't work out exactly what it was that made me just slightly uneasy about TAM London. The cost was one thing for sure, but the unease went beyond that. Your analogy of it being church-like is quite brilliant I think.

One of the attractive things about the recent rise in scepticism is its individuality, even mildly anarchic nature cloned sceptics would be little more attractive than cloned vicars. The next thing would be degrees in scepticism, and statutory regulation by the General Sceptical Council.

Expensive conference in Hilton hotels are for drug reps and PR people (and, OK, I know, increasingly for scientific conferences. Somehow they don't quite fit with sceptics, many of whom are scientists (and therefore not wealthy) and who have to pay for themselves.

I guess one great virtue of this post is that I know I'm not alone.

Thanks! I'm not criticising the organisers ei...

2010-05-23T15:46:29.615Z

Thanks!

I'm not criticising the organisers either. They've put together a wonderful show and it is a huge achievement. I'm hugely thankful and appreciative for their work.

As the first TAM:London sold out within an hour I'm pretty certain they have nothing to fear from the extra exposure that TED style show releases would bring.

And if they can release a DVD I'm sure they can do the same for youtube videos etc.

That said, I'm well aware that if they took up this proposal it may have to wait till 2011.

I actually agree with you on some points. I was a...

2010-05-23T15:38:44.781Z

I actually agree with you on some points.

I was able to afford the airfare and hotel cost to stay in London last year - which isn't cheap. I have also been able to afford TAM in Vegas for several years, which is a relatively cheap vacation compared to going to, say, Europe or New York City, but more costly than camping in the Rockies.

Last year, the Vegas TAM was shown live over the internet for much of the conference. Some of my friends, who were unable to attend in person, said they remained glued to their monitors for both days. Sure, they missed out on the community aspects, but got to see the actual presentations. And ticket sales did not seem to suffer, as they had a record attendance last year.

I realize that was not the case at TAM London, and that it won't be again this year.

I do not know the reason - unless it is fear that they will not sell out and have enough money to cover the undoubtedly high cost of renting the conference room for two days. That's certainly a valid concern and one reason that US football teams often black out TV coverage of a game in the city in which the game is held.

Perhaps there might be copyright issues with some of the speakers, or with their visual aids, which would have to be worked out on a case-by-case basis. UK law is different that US law, I'm sure.

I am in NO WAY criticizing the organizers of TAM London. I think they did a fantastic job, and the conference was everything I could have wished for and more, which is why I want to go again, even with the expense. Tracy and the others deserved nothing but praise, and I mean that quite strongly. But I agree that showing some of the presentations such as the TED conference does, would be a great thing for skepticism.